FUCK THE 4th! Huge Holiday Sale at AK Press!

AK is a great publisher/community resource, and it's cool when they post notices about upcoming "events," but this "news blurb" is really just a free ad. What if every indy merchant started posting ads in the news column? This site would suck.

This is clearly a commercial post and I see no difference between AK posting a commercial notice and any other business doing the same. It seems fair that if they can do it, then so can Body Shop, or Rainbow, and theoretically, Ford Motor Company.

Thanks for supplying the books, AK, but please respect the format of this website. Don't publish your commercial ventures here. There is a limit to capitalism....it seems like you would already understand that.

Personally, I also am offended at your "Fuck the 4th" concept. Yeah, I know what the 4th means to the flag-waving nationalists. I know that "Independence Day" in a country with Native American political prisoners is a joke. I know this country is guilty of a lot of crimes against it's own citizens. As a working class, gay man, I'm one of them.

But the 4th to many of us progressives means a time for us to gather with friends and family to value the small freedoms with do have. To share each others company in a non-religious way as a loving community. To talk about what we can do to right the wrongs of our country. And to honor those real patriots who fought and died to liberate our society from the oppression of capital, monarchy, corporate tyranny, religious/non-religious persecution, and even our heroes/heroines who fight today for the freedom of political prisoners, the preservation of our natural heritage, and the end to all discrimination faced by Americans, citizen and immigrant, today. In short, the 4th we celebrate is one in which one day we will truly be liberated, not one of self-congratulatory jingoism. Getting cynical and bitter over it is not empowering yourself and your community to do something better, to do something different, to subvert the negative aspects and replace them with positive ones.

I do love my country. THAT'S why I fight and struggle. I love the world too, but my country comes first, which is why I opposed the Iraq war, why I hate the neo-cons, I hate the corporate control of our society, and why I believe in ending all aid to Israel and other despotic regimes. And I find your event not only antithetical to the progressive values we should honor on that day, but a cynical slap in the face to the masses of Americans who have a clear understanding of the history and present reality of the nation they live in.

In this way, you're behaving with the same detached disregard for community and ethical values that would rival any Monsanto...to turn a buck. But if Ramsey Kanaan really hates America that much, I'm sure Scotland will welcome him back with open arms.

Keep Indybay commercial-free.

Patriotism does not equal Nationalism.

I love Berkeley, San Francisco, Sacramento, Pomeria South Carolina, Jemez Springs New Mexico, but Amerikkka? Patriotism DOES equal nationalism, and, (potentially), fascism. You think the Nazis weren't sincerely patriotic?

By "nationalism" . . . I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests. . . .By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power.

George Orwell "Notes on Nationalism" (1945)

Webster's Dictionary defines patriot as "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests.". Orwell's redefinition doesn''t change the meaning or usage of the word. If you're a patriot does that mean you have to support George Bush and the Pentagon? What about the interests of the interests of the United States? Cheap oil? AT&T?

Since when do you care what "Webster's" says? You certainly don't use their definition of "Zionism", do you?

" My country right or wrong", "Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists", the PATRIOT act, The way that patriotism is commonly defined, it equates with nationalism. If you, (or Orwell), want to create your own definitions then fine. Just don't expect most people to catch what you're saying, or get too upset at their (mis)perceptions of you, or examine the ones who accept your 'patriotism' too closely,

it is not owned by a capitalist, but by the workers themselves.

I just wanted to say that I think that it's completely appropiate for AK to post in the news section of this site. Yeah, yeah, they posted an advertisment, (as well as a party anouncement), but an ad for what... Discounted books. Important, critical, books that might cause folks to think a little bit, to be aware, and thereby maybe, just maybe improve the content of this and other indymedia sites.

As far FUCK the 4th goes, HELL YES.

PP, obviously you don't want to hear anybody's opinion but yer own. Regarding AK's ad--so, according to you, it's alright for any ad that you agree with to be posted in the news section of indybay? Where do you draw the line? Pretty soon, the site would be flooded with ads from every book store, ngo, organic boutique, etc. until this site is just as flooded with commercials as any other site.
Orwell's distinction b/t patriotism and nationalism was clearly and intelligently presented, but you chose to ignore it, saying "Just don't expect most people to catch what you're saying". Try thinking critically instead of just reacting...you might actually learn something. There's a very good reason why people still read Orwell.

AK is a worker-owned anarchist cooperative. in other words, unlike 99.8% of everything else in this country it's not a capitalist corporation. Luckily there are a few other worker-owned cooperatives in the area and it's fine with me if they also post party invitations on indymedia (especially "f4ck the fourth" party invitations).

You shouldn't mind this, since UA employees own a majority of the company stock. It's funny though, to see folks making excuses for a flagrantly consumerist posting. Sure, we all have to sell some product (usually our labor) to survive in a capitalist system, but you don't see me posting ads for back massages on Indybay, do you? Since I am the worker-owner?

We're not really thinking, are we?

. Re: AK Press

I think you people are missing the point. AK Press should be, (is), allowed to post events/sales here because of MUTUAL AID. Mutual Aid is not charity or 'giving' anyone anything, nor is it involve 'tit-for-tat' receprocities found in modern economies. As I perceive it, Mutual Aid simpy involves the recogition that you have an obligation to support thoise people or institutions that are supporting you and acting on that recognition. It's not just about workers co-oops. AK Press hosted and participated in many events and is an intregal part of the Anarchist Community, whereas the Rainbow Grocery or Missing Link co-ops are not. That's why they should be allowed to post here.

Re: Patriotism vs. Nationiam

Yes George Orwell was a great writer. When I was a kid I enjoyed 'Animal Farm". "Homage to Catalonia" was my first exposure to Anarchism. But he wass simply wrong to think he could redefine a word .to erase any conotations he didn't like,. I can redefine "Nazi" as "German Patriot", and indeed many Nazis, including SS colonel Otto Skorensky, (famed for Mussolini's resccue as well as leading the Battle of the Bulge) escaped the noose at Nuremberg by convincing the tribunal that that's all they were. But that redefinition doesn't change their actions one bit. Patriotism is used to justify every attrocity committed in the twentith century\,
snd it almost always equates with Nationialism, Orwell withstanding.

PP, you say that AK's ads should take precedence over other collective ads, because AK is anarchist. When did indybay become an explicitly anarchist web site. Yes, indybay is managed according to some aspects of anarchist theory, but I don't see any black flags...

I think Ann T. Herst is correct. This is not a local news event nor should it have gotten promoted as such. It has been changed.

Fear IMCsta. Are you saying the IMC is not anarchist? Then why do you have a stall at the Anarchist Book Fair every year? And if you feel that this posting must be moved,, at least putit under the "art +
action" page under local events, and not here where no one will see it.

Ann T Hersh sounds a lot like a certain person who has had past personal conflicts with certain people at AK (her usual name starts with an "h"). I wouldnt take the complaint seriously anymore than the other complaints she and her friends post to this site in an effort to be disruptive. Ads on an Indymedia site are really up to the editors and readers. Some political concerts that are promoted cost money to get into and most events have a suggested donation at the door. I think an anti4th of July event (even if it is a booksale) is fine on this site, but if others dont, maybe it shouldnt be promoted. Just dont base the decission off of a discussion involving people on here who have alterior motives.

I don't know who Ann T Hersh is, but she/he is right about the commerical nature of the post. But instead of taking it for face value, you attempt to play the role of Inquisition priest or Bolshevik drone rooting out the heathens and their nefarious attempts at being "disruptive". PURGE, PURGE, PURGE! Anarchist? You sound more like a goddamn Maoist to me!

Pointing out the obvious about a commercial post, regardless of who posts it, is not being disruptive nor does one have to have "alterior" motives (by the way, it's ULTERIOR. Go back to school, dumbass).

And Indybay isn't an Anarchist venture, nor to my knowledge has it ever claimed such, but if it is then fuck it because I believe in REAL free speech, not that which is "acceptable" by any one group, whether I belong to that group or not.

And by the way, if Indybay was the realm soley of Anarchists, then they of all people should also be steaming about mixing a source dedicated to the commons with purely commercial advertisements by a so-called "anarchist" book distributor/publisher.

What the fuck happened to the anti-capitalist element of anarchism. Oh, I know. It's just become a slogan of black-clad punk rock teenagers to put on their backpacks, while they hold their picnics and get arrested for no reason (that's ok Johnny, daddy will bail you out.)

Oh, where is the time. I'm totally ranting. Anyway.

"And Indybay isn't an Anarchist venture, nor to my knowledge has it ever claimed such.".

I repeat if Indymedia is not Anarchist then why do they have a stall at the Anarchist Book Fair.

"they of all people should also be steaming about mixing a source dedicated to the commons with purely commercial advertisements"

Purely commercial posts appear here all of time, mostly promoting benefit screenings for groups like POOR or Anarchy magazine. Posts appear promying a variety os Spolen Word/Musical events, such as the upcoming Total Liberation tour. Read the sidebar on the features page.

Sometimes the ads promote nothing but themsselves. Check out the ARTS + Ation local sidebar and see Anne Sprikle's Amazing World of Orgasm. Why the fuck are articles promoting movies about Orgasms ok with the indymedia staff but articles promoting books are not.

Sorry, I mispelled the liink. But why is this permitted and AK's article isn't.

what is it selling? It is an event and not a sale. Although I really tried hard to think of the AK Press SALE as an event it is hard to look at it that way.

Why all this hubris for this post? It was not hidden nor was it deleted. It was re-classified as it should have been in the first place. If you are interested in why it was reclassified, please read: http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/08/139500.php

"well then": If you can't figure out the difference between United, one of the largest airlines in the world, which has repeatedly been bailed out by the US Congress, and a local anarchist workers' cooperative, sorry, I can't help you.

In 1994, 55% of United stock was given to employees as part of a pay cut, called ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Plan). A majority of the company's workers -- its flight attendants and its nonunion employees -- were never even part of the plan. The shares have now been sold for pennies on the dollar, and the ESOP program has been terminated. United of course went into bankruptcy in 2002.

someone pointed me here because my name was being invoked in vain. Sorry guys, ann t isn't me, since I don't post not using my name. I have no need to hide my opinions behind the mask of internet anonymity. I completely support AK, I think what they do is great, however I think it's a little questionable what indybay is turning into, which is basically a big ad-fest for the net gain of those who control the network. WIth ads (benefitting indybay members) promoted as news, ads (benefitting indybay members) as front-page "breaking news" blurbs, and ads all over their newspaper, where will the real news go? Sad that you guys are hurting for content that you need to make up for it with 'fluff'. If you want some help, feel free to ask :)

one other thing, I like how every time someone disagrees with something on indybay, my or my comrades names are automatically invoked. It's as if there cannot be a dissenting opinion among any other group of people. That's just sad. You are using the same tired tactics that Zionazi's use when they label anyone criticizing Israel an anti-semite. It's pathetic when they do it, and it's pretty sad here too. Can't we all just grow up a little and try and step outside the activist ghetto and try to start helping people instead of concentrating on some sort of he said/she said activist version of livejournal? Thx and cheers!

AK's publicizing an event as well as a sale. And I don't see any violation of bay area indymedia's guidlines for publication.

Annie Sprinkle's event is a sale. She's selling movie tickets for a capitialist enterporise. If we allow Annie Sprinkle to post her 'events' , why can't the SF Power Exchange,

I understand that AK's event might be leaning on the side of being inappropiate. But given their contributions to our community, sponsoring events, speakers, report-backs, (just search for indymedia arcticles with "AK Press" as the keyword). They havve a right to post here and we have an obligation to support them, as long as the post is not totally in violation of indymedia's .principles.

BTW: regarding the two posts by hep - Is that 'a example of "troll bait" or is it called "flame bait"

pirateprentice:

it's called a "valid point". But in an effort to invalidate any criticism of indybay's tactics and/or editorial decisions feel free to try and discredit my statements however you see fit. I just don't see profitting (how ever you wish to spin it, advertising such as this is profitting) off of the indymedia name as a wise move towards keeping credibility for said name. cheers :)

Hep. Validate your statement. With the exeption of the Annie Sprinkle post, (which BTW was also posted SF indymedia until yesterday), what give us examples of Indybay posts that were simply advertisements for commercial enterprises. I